Author Topic: Dro with cad?  (Read 331 times)

Carpenter84

Dro with cad?
« on: June 01, 2021, 08:25:55 AM »
Anyone ever seen a DRO with CAD? Like a follow along dro? Enter a shaft drawing and the dro displays the cuts and shows you the next moves and what not?
I know with the better Heidenheim units you can program steps, but those are expensive units...
It would be like machining to a print hung beside the display, but it's on the display and it's following along.

Just a thought...
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

jpigg55

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2021, 09:13:22 AM »
I'm not aware of any, although Yuriy was/is working on adding a function to Touch DRO similar to what you're asking about.
Last I knew, it was still a "Work in progress", but here's the link to the write-up about it on his website: https://www.yuriystoys.com/2017/07/virtual-layout-feature-preview.html

As far as I know, it will be limited to 2D CAD type drawing formats. I'll try to contact him and see if there's any updates to this function.
SB 9A, Clausing 8520, Sanford MG 612

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2021, 11:05:40 AM »
Ya of course 2D only.
What comes to mind is a shaft with turning features on the lathe with a graphic display showing the programmed shaft and the current tool path and the material to be removed.
The first major advantage I can think of is merely reducing errors. As long as everything is reading correctly, of course, since it's an open loop style readout. You, yourself, would be the other half of the loop.
Certainly reduce print reading errors.
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

PJB

Dro with cad?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2021, 12:22:00 PM »
X
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 08:45:01 AM by PJB »
1991 Bridgeport Series I 2J-VS  9"x48"
1979 Clausing Colchester Bantam Mk2 11"x30"
1972 Harig Super 612
2015 Tormach PCNC-1100 Mill

"They wants what you gots!"

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2021, 01:02:12 PM »
In theory, (of course, I'm constantly taking measurements) every time you correct the value after measuring, it wouldn't do anything to the tool location aside from update it.
Being able to see the graphic would help in hitting the target better and not doing something (that we've all done) like miss the mark by .050-.100" because we read the wrong side of the tick or added up the mic measurement wrong.

I am a but surprised - with all the cad cam stuff so easily available now, that no one has done this yet.
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

PJB

Dro with cad?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2021, 03:26:09 PM »
X
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 08:44:41 AM by PJB »
1991 Bridgeport Series I 2J-VS  9"x48"
1979 Clausing Colchester Bantam Mk2 11"x30"
1972 Harig Super 612
2015 Tormach PCNC-1100 Mill

"They wants what you gots!"

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2021, 03:56:03 PM »
On the small lathe I did. Big lathe still has the compound. And I have it set at 2į right now for that sanding saw blade, and I can't tell you how many times I've bumped the handle (it's 2į off from perfectly in line with the cross slide) already and nearly messed up...
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

jpigg55

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 10:02:43 AM »
I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that most people opt to go full on CNC vs having the ability to import CAD files to a DRO display for manual operations.
Thereís also the fact that even the most basic 2D CAD platform software are updated fairly frequently. Many times, this would require dedicated DRO display software to have the ability to be updated by the end user or sent back to the manufacturer for update along with people that would need to track updates and modify the DRO display software. Possible, but highly unlikely.

To the point about lathe tooling position, there is an old request to add this feature to Touch DRO on the forum. Iím not sure if this feature will be added eventually or not. To be functional, it would require both a linear encoder and a rotary encoder to be added to the compound along with all the math required to track tool location to be added to the App. While possible, I havenít seen enough interest in this feature addition for the programming to be written and added, but who knows, maybe someday.
SB 9A, Clausing 8520, Sanford MG 612

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2021, 10:44:44 AM »
Not necessarily.
You can program tool offsets in a dro, and as long as nothing has moved around, those tools can be easily and quickly recalled. The dro knows where the tool is - the user sets the position. That's that whole point of a dro. In fact, I have a graphical display dro that has the same drill hole functions as the rest, but displays the hole layout on the screen. However, you have to press to advance to the next hole (milling machine obviously). It doesn't seem like it would be much further into the programming to add a curser on the display showing the position of the tool relative to, say, the absolute coordinates. Of course, all of the homing has to be done by the user.

Let's say, for example, a dro accepts a standard 2-3D file format, there's many different ones most would call standard. Could be recalled via a USB stick, loaded onto the street, some parameters set, and watch the curser move about the screen. 
Yes, you're right, that's basically a CNC machine setup. But it would be an open loop setup since there's no actual machine control to make it a closed loop.
See?! Simple as peanuts!... I just need a brainiac to do the actual thinking and implementing. Lol.

I suppose this COULD be done via a laptop with something like Mach, but then you're machining with a computer. I'm not sure about anyone else, but even my phone is stored way on the other side of the shop away from machines and oil and hot chips, and all my dro's have the protective plastic cover on them...

The comment I made about the heidenheim dro - Robin renzetti (YouTube and Instagram dude, machines from another planet...) Has an old unit that you can program steps into, and follows along. Not graphically, however. It automatically skips to the next set point once the previous one has been reached.
He has one unit that he swaps back and forth from the mill and lathe. Impressive unit...
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

jpigg55

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2021, 10:18:41 AM »
Not necessarily.
You can program tool offsets in a dro, and as long as nothing has moved around, those tools can be easily and quickly recalled. The dro knows where the tool is - the user sets the position. That's that whole point of a dro. In fact, I have a graphical display dro that has the same drill hole functions as the rest, but displays the hole layout on the screen. However, you have to press to advance to the next hole (milling machine obviously). It doesn't seem like it would be much further into the programming to add a curser on the display showing the position of the tool relative to, say, the absolute coordinates. Of course, all of the homing has to be done by the user.

Let's say, for example, a dro accepts a standard 2-3D file format, there's many different ones most would call standard. Could be recalled via a USB stick, loaded onto the street, some parameters set, and watch the curser move about the screen. 
Yes, you're right, that's basically a CNC machine setup. But it would be an open loop setup since there's no actual machine control to make it a closed loop.
See?! Simple as peanuts!... I just need a brainiac to do the actual thinking and implementing. Lol.

Yes, there are file formats that one could call "Standard", but many times the programs that create these files have to be updated to work with new or updated computer/tablet operating systems. Ever try to open a "Word" document with an older version of Microsoft Word than it was created with ? Sometimes it will work, other times all you see on the screen is Gobble-de-Gook.

Similar to your Hole Pattern example, Yuriy added a check box on the Touch DRO Virtual Layout graphical display that, when checked, auto selects the nearest point to the cursor. All I have to do is crank towards which ever hole position I wish to do next and when the cursor gets close, it locks on to that location and the axis value displays change such that all you have to do is crank to zero on the X & Y axes.

There may well be other DRO systems available that have some or all of the features you're looking for, just none that I'm aware of. IMHO, even Touch DRO isn't the best option for a lathe DRO either. I did contact Yuriy and he said he's finally caught up enough that he's back working on the newest revision to Touch DRO that may well include the ability to import 2D CAD drawings for use with the graphical display, if all goes well.
The main reason I even suggested it was that it can be made to work with your current DRO scales (unless they use a proprietary encoding algorithm). All you'd need to have is a controller and tablet/phone that uses Android OS and you could use your current DRO scales.
SB 9A, Clausing 8520, Sanford MG 612

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 10:58:35 AM »

Similar to your Hole Pattern example, Yuriy added a check box on the Touch DRO Virtual Layout graphical display that, when checked, auto selects the nearest point to the cursor. All I have to do is crank towards which ever hole position I wish to do next and when the cursor gets close, it locks on to that location and the axis value displays change such that all you have to do is crank to zero on the X & Y axes.

Ya, right there. The programming is already there. It would just be a matter of being able to upload a CAD file and program the steps.

But what you're talking about in touch dro isn't half bad sounding. Same as what I saw in the heidenheim. Would be a great feature to have.

But, it's all just bull pies until someone actually does the work... Wayyyy above my pay grade...
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

jpigg55

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2021, 08:09:47 AM »
Just a guess, but I think Yuriy should have the Beta testing version out by this fall. I've got a couple projects in mind that this will help immensely with, if he's successful in making it work.
I'll post an update when it comes out and let everyone know what I think about it.
SB 9A, Clausing 8520, Sanford MG 612

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2021, 10:22:54 PM »
Here's an interesting notion I just discovered.
I finally received the DRO scales I ordered over a month ago for the big lathe, I did not order a read out because I was going to use the graphical unit from the Induma until that mill is ready to use it again. The scales I received do not work with that graphical read out. So it seems these scales have a proprietary wiring. I'm sure I could rewire the plug end, ... but that would require effort...
But it somewhat kyboshes this conversation - or at least with the expectation all the Chinese scales would work plug and play. 
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,

jpigg55

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2021, 08:39:26 AM »
Shawn,
Do you have any of the literature or links for the scales and DRO display ?
Are the scale connectors D-sub or USB type ?

I somewhat recall the thread you posted about them, but don't recall much about them. If the scale is compatible with the display (voltage, resolution, etc.), it should be fairly easy to make it work. If I remember correctly weren't they 1 micron resolution glass scales ?
If so, that would mean they are either A,B,Z or A,A',B,B' quadrature encoded. As long as the scale and display use the same encoding channels, all you would need to do is possibly swap pins on the D-sub connectors. Fairly simple process if you have the little D-sub pin tool: https://www.amazon.com/QualConnectTM-D-Sub-Insertion-Extraction-Tool/dp/B00QG4UCA2/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=d-sub+pin+tool&link_code=qs&qid=1622900318&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-4
SB 9A, Clausing 8520, Sanford MG 612

Carpenter84

Re: Dro with cad?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2021, 08:55:50 AM »
5 micron glass scales. I emailed the seller, he confirmed they use their own pinout. The pinout is in the manual, but again, I donít want to rewire them.
Before I left last night, after finishing probably my least favourite job in the shop - mounting dro scalesÖ. I reaaached the scale cord alll the way across to the small lathe and plugged it into its non graphical display dro. Scale read fine. So, itís the scales with the graphical unit that are proprietary.
Regardless, I bought the readout unit for these new scales from the seller and asked him to ship it as fast as possible. I may have work next week (the hubs) that will need a dro. Otherwise, Iíll bring the other lathes unit over.
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill, 9x42 Induma Knee mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
D. McKenzie 15" metal shaper,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,