Author Topic: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg  (Read 891 times)

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« on: August 13, 2018, 08:23:15 PM »
My 10x28 Mysore Kirloskar Enterprise 10 lathe... Produced some time in the '80s. For no reason at all, I really like this lathe. I suppose it's my lathe. When I consider looking for another lathe I never see anything i like. I don't like old lathes, even if they're sought after. New Chinese lathes are the only thing within my reach and I don't like them either. My friend has a 12x36 busy bee lathe and it's very clunky and cheap feeling.
Finding a decent age gear head lathe would be difficult to say the least and likely very out of my price range. And then there's the foot print. My lathe fits PERFECTLY in its home. I literally could not fit a lathe 1" longer.

I fear it is becoming quite worn out. It turns a .0025" taper over 4". The ways are soft, I oil it religiously but the oil turns black in less than a few hours use, so I know it's wearing down. I have not yet spent the time to learn how to scrape never mind not being terrified to ruin the ways trying.
It is very difficult to obtain anything closer than. .001" accuracy. Forget trying to nail a sliding fit.
It's all very depressing...

The head does sit on the ways, but there are adjustment screws. But I know there is way wear. There has to be. The ways have been galled at some point in its history. I did a half ass test to check way wear. Took the tail stock off, moved the carriage down to the end of the bed where it is NEVER used, uses my dti set on the carriage and checked run out of the ways as far ahead of the carriage as the indicator stand would reach . About .002". However, the dti moves drastically if I reverse the hand wheel. I pulled up on the hand wheel and I can lift the carriage up about .008". There is no gib on the carriage, only some retaining blocks secured by cap screws. I cannot tighten them anymore. I assume it has worn down at .008".

Realistically, in order for me to have an semi accurate lathe, I either need to sell this one and find something, or have it rebuilt by someone who can.

Someone talk to me about this... What have others done in my position? Is a rebuild a reasonable thing? I paid $600 for this lathe almost 3 years ago. I have invested very little into it aside from the DC drive controller. So, any money spent, to a point, would still keep me a bit ahead. I feel this lathe till has many many years of life left if I could either have the ways reground, or scrapped.

Also, is it an option to have the ways hardened? Or is that unrealistic?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 08:27:29 PM by Carpenter84 »
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

4GSR

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2018, 08:38:54 PM »
I can remember running a 18" lathe one time that had about .030" wear in the bed ways.  You think that wasn't hard trying to hold a couple of thousandths in 12"?  Taper was about .012" in 6" in certain places gradually got some what better to about .002" as you got out future than 12-18" from the chuck.  It didn't manner how you adjusted things, that was it.  What you did was make a mental note where the high areas were in what you were cutting.  And you adjusted in your cross slide by similar amounts.  You also had a dial indicator mounted on the cross slide that helped you keep track of this too.  After a while you got good at holding a couple of thousandths on the wore out lathe.  Any closer than that, your file and emery was your best friend.

Oh, i know I got off track here.  Back to your question, do you fix what you have, or buy something to replace it?  First, don't replace it.  Buy another to add to your collection.  Once you have it running like you want, start rebuilding the old one.  Just my opinion.  I used to love rebuilding this old junk.  I'm just about burn out from all I've done over the years.

Ken
Ken

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2018, 10:26:12 PM »
The lack of room in my garage will put a pretty quick kybosh to any new equipment, unfortunately.
I DO like the lathe, Iíd rather see it rebuilt than be sold. I thought I saw a video you had on your YouTube of you reprinting ways...? Is that an option for a smaller lathe? What would be likely? Grind the ways and scrape the carriage?
What about hardening anything?
Iím not leaping out the door tomorrow to find a local machine shop to rebuild my machine, but the wear actually bothers me... I try REALLY hard sometimes to achieve good accuracy and I usually come up quite short..... or in most cases too far/small...
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

Ulma Doctor

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2018, 11:30:46 PM »
i have bought my share of equipment, (and possibly someone else's too)
i know when i buy equipment that there are imperfections, especially if someone owned it before you.

i weight the asking price, the availability, the scope of work i'm intending to do with the piece, and the return on investment.

if you are trying to do precision work (sub.001") you are going to need to spend either a lot of time, or a lot of money - maybe both brother . :'(
i'm not trying to exclude unicorns that pop up. i captured a couple of them- but they are hard to find.

the single most important thing i can think of in your situation is to eliminate the carriage rise.
if you could somehow limit the clearance to a thousandth or so, that would improve the function
as a suggestion, mill off .007"(or .006" and hand file, lap, and finish as necessary) from the attachment side of the plate to make a step.
the end result is the untouched wear portion of the plate will still have the same wear pattern, without the excessive clearance.

then make a simple test bar and do the 2 collar test, that will tell you what it actually cuts like (in the 2 zones)

IMO, i would get another lathe before i'd get the bed reground.
you'll end up spending twice as much (time and money)rebuilding a machine than if you were to go ahead and bite the bullet for something superior.
9 Lathes, 5 Milling Machines, 6 Welders, 2 Surface Grinders, Shop Smith & woodworking stuff too !!!

MIKE WALTON

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 11:41:46 PM »
I suppose I know where the chatter comes from when it arises. Not terribly often, but there definitely are times when it rears its ugly head. When I do get chatter, it's usually HUGE and VERY loud... shakes the whole garage.


This is all very disappointing... I knew there would be wear in my lathe, but I've never looked for it. I always knew because of the black oil I'd always wipe off. But I usually ignored it because I knew it was bigger than me. If I found it, there would be nothing I could do about it. And that's very discouraging. Especially when i TRY to make good, accurate parts, and I always miss the mark.

So many times I've considered doing away with my cross slide because it's a big weakness in my lathe, it's not very smooth, and I rarely use it. Only time I use it is for very course threads, or sharp tapers. Which are actually somewhat frequent. In fact, it wasn't two weeks ago I made a nose cone with a tapered tip... Hard to consider putting a solid tool post in place of the cross slide if I DO use it... And the idea of switching back and forth just seems annoying.

Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

Ulma Doctor

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 11:59:55 PM »
i have screwed up with new machines and ruined parts by going oversize.  ;)
it's just easier to mess up on a clapped out machine.
you have to plan operations differently and sneak up on turned dimensions, but it can be done!
9 Lathes, 5 Milling Machines, 6 Welders, 2 Surface Grinders, Shop Smith & woodworking stuff too !!!

MIKE WALTON

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 12:06:08 AM »
I knnooowwwww.... I might be being over dramatic.
Itís just that black way oil that scares me. Every time I wipe it off and put more way oil on I feel like Iím wiping off another layer of accuracy.
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

chips and more

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 10:03:57 AM »
I would first try adjusting. Level the bed/ways best you can. And if as you say about the head with adjusting screws? Put a test bar in the head stock business end and adjust the taper out as best you can using the head stock adjusting screws. ď0.0025Ē in 4Ē is a lot and sounds like adjustment more than wear. Good LuckÖDave

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 10:22:56 AM »
The whole operation had started after starting the process of adjusting my tailstock. Because I believe it's out of align.
I was going to try the Richard king method (I heard it from him before, I'm sure he didn't invent it)
Make a test bat the exact diameter of the tailstock shaft, butt the two together then use an indicator on the carriage to test and adjust by indicating back and forth across the gap.

I cut the test bar and checked the diameter front to back. Noticing the difference, that's what started the downward spiral into depression. Lol.

I suppose I should do things in the right order...
Put my bigger chuck on, do a longer test bar just in the jaws, see if I can adjust the head to satisfaction. Then do the tailstock in the method mentioned above. Then do a longer test cut between centers. See what I come up with across the board.

How's that sound?
I assume if I have significant wear in the bed I'll see varied diameters across the test bar between centers as the carriage travels across the wear?
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2018, 10:24:30 AM »
Actually.... If the head is out of align, that could explain why I could never sort out the run out of that er collet chuck I made last year. I could grind it true but take it off I'd lose repeatability... Hmmm
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

chips and more

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2018, 01:48:13 PM »
I would first level the bed. It does not need to be perpendicular to gravity (level). But you do need to try and get the same readings from headstock to tailstock. Some beds will have wear and or have a sag. And your readings will drive you nuts trying to find level or the same readings. Thatís when you take your best shot and go for it. Also, using a level with good sensitivity would be niceÖDave

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2018, 01:53:59 PM »
I have the lathe sitting on rubber pads. So, zero leveling.. the table it sits on should be relatively flat, it is built VERY sturdy.
What are the methods of leveling? Can I place a torpedo level across the ways (front way to back way)?  The portion closest to the head and the portion past the tail stock should have zero wear on it. I'm essentially looking for twist, correct? I likely won't get level (with the earth) as my garage floor likely slopes 6 ways from Sunday, but as long as I get the same reading front to back, that's what matters, correct?
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.

woodchucker

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2018, 02:13:57 PM »
so when I read the name "Mysore Kirloskar Enterprise" I thought you added the MYSORE ... you didn't after looking it up..
Sounds like it is My Sore... or aptly named.

Rebuild and send the bed out...
The guy I bought the surface grinder off paid 1200 to have a bed ground , it was a long bed, at least 5 feet, He then hand scraped it.
If 1200 doesn't sound that bad, it might be worth it.
As far as the scraping.. well take a Richard King class.
Jeff
Clausing 8520   SB Model 9a - power hacksaw, Milwaukee band saw in a table.  Delta Rockwell Surface Grinder (not online yet .. being rebuilt where am I going to stick this)
For pics: https://woodchucker.imgur.com

chips and more

Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2018, 03:57:03 PM »
I have the lathe sitting on rubber pads. So, zero leveling.. the table it sits on should be relatively flat, it is built VERY sturdy.
What are the methods of leveling? Can I place a torpedo level across the ways (front way to back way)?  The portion closest to the head and the portion past the tail stock should have zero wear on it. I'm essentially looking for twist, correct? I likely won't get level (with the earth) as my garage floor likely slopes 6 ways from Sunday, but as long as I get the same reading front to back, that's what matters, correct?

YES, you are hoping to get the same readings. Sorry, donít think a torpedo level is sensitive enough?

Carpenter84

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
  • Total likes: 6
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Bowmanville, Ontario. Hobbies, hobbies, hobbies.
Re: Wear? Alignment? ... Uhhg
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2018, 05:01:18 PM »
Yeah, I'm sure I can't. The torpedo is brand new and has markings up to 1/8" over its distance , about 5". But, the vile is new and very clear, I will try it as that's all I have. I might be able to see if it varies from head to tail.

Lol, MySore. MySoreAss... I've not been able to find any info on this lathe what-so-ever.
There is a company that says it has drawings, schematics, and a manual, but they sell it for quite a bit of money... Not something I've yet considered doing. H. H. Roberts machinery limited in Toronto, Canada.
There is a big sticker on the side of the banjo cover. Must have been the company that supplied the lathe in the first place.
Shawn

First 9x42 column mill,
Enterprise 10x28 lathe,
Ko Lee 6x12 surface grinder,
Airco dip/stick 160 welder,
Fully stocked wood shop.